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Mike Rowe from Dirty jobs explains why the Humane Society and Peta's technique for sheep castration is more cruel than just pulling them off... with your teeth.
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Mike Rowe from Dirty jobs explains why the Humane Society and Peta's technique for sheep castration is more cruel than just pulling them off... with your teeth. (youtube.com) submitted 5 hours ago by MrPoppersPuffins * NSFW * 1264 comments * share * save *
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[–]Falstaffe 1144 points 3 hours ago
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Whenever the instructor at my state's major agricultural college demonstrates castrating sheep with his teeth, at least one student faints.
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[–]ihrtboobies 501 points 3 hours ago*
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Why use your teeth? Why not use a tool to do the cutting?
Edit: I was kind of hoping for one person with experience to answer, rather than dozens of people with no experience making wild assumptions :/.
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[–]fooliam 808 points 3 hours ago
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Because people don't have 3 hands
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[–]ihrtboobies 211 points 3 hours ago
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No, but using the Mike Rowe video as an example, one person holds the sheep, why couldn't you grab the balls with one hand and use your free hand to cut? To band the sheep you have to hold a tool with one hand anyways, I don't see why cutting would be any different.
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[–]ForThisIJoined 200 points 3 hours ago
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It wouldn't, but by using your teeth you avoid introducing a sharp pointy object into the mix of a sometimes struggling sheep and your own body. It'd probably be the same speed as teeth...but why would you?
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[–]Broshank 529 points 2 hours ago
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I'd imagine you would if you didn't relish the idea of having severed testicles on your tongue.
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[–]n0xx_is_irish 559 points 2 hours ago
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If that kind of stuff grosses you out then maybe you're not cut out to be a farmer/shepherd.
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[–]ARedditingRedditor 173 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form most people arnt cut out for it. Its a hell of a job that people never really think about.
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[–]Shaman_Bond 241 points 2 hours ago
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Grew up on a farm, did a lot of farm stuff. Watched my dad pull a stuck calf from a new mom. He was completely covered in afterbirth, shit, and god knows what else. The smell almost made me throw up but he was just really happy both the calf and momma were ok and had a huge smile on his face.
Almost all people, myself included, aren't cut-out for being full-time farmers.
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[–]itty53 105 points an hour ago
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I don't think it's so much being 'cut out' for it as it is being endeared to it.
I'd say most, if not all kids are squeemish around farm stuff at first. After they've basically been forced into it by their parents, they grow to appreciate exactly what it is: Raising life (livestock) for the purpose of sustaining even more life (food for people). It's a beautiful thing, but some people just can't get past the slaughter and other grossness.
When you're exposed to it from start to finish, you find yourself incredibly thankful as you chew the food in your mouth. There's plenty of other strong emotions too, and it all does change you as a person.
That's what I mean by 'being endeared to it', rather than being 'cut out for it'. It's kinda like parenting: No one's 'ready' for it, and children are certainly not just the bundle of hope and joy they're made out to be. They can be hell. But they can also be wonderful.
Farmers (and parents) just do because they must, and they reap those intense emotions from it. But I think any amazing farmer or amazing parent would say the same thing: "No I wasn't cut out for this - good god, this took anincredible amount of effort to do right".
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[–]ARedditingRedditor 10 points 2 hours ago
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Yea my father grew up on a farm and from all the stories I was told I am glad I didnt lol.
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[–]ObiWanBonogi 11 points 2 hours ago
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It certainly puts Will Hunting's dream of tending sheep on the side of a hill in a new perspective.
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[–]Paganator 10 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form you're not cut out
As opposed to the sheep.
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[–]budpickens 33 points 2 hours ago
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Hey if you're gonna fuck the sheep, might as well put their balls in your mouth, too. It's only fair.
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[–]Fluffy_Pumpkins 11 points 2 hours ago
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I'm pretty sure that's a welsh sterotype
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[–]supercore23 6 points 2 hours ago
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That's why there's so many cliffs in Wales.
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[–]robo4536 57 points 2 hours ago
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There are a lot of "icky" things farmers do that most people wouldn't like to do. They get over it quickly.
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[–]Technical_Machine_22 82 points 2 hours ago
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After you jerk off your tenth horse it sort of loses the thrill.
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[–]ootika 48 points 2 hours ago
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Not for everyone. :)
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[–]vote100binary 8 points 1 hour ago
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[–]cutofmyjib 17 points 1 hour ago
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Neigh, I disagree
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[–]Stenen 4 points 1 hour ago
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Top of Form im a farmer and i do a lot of icky things, but i wouldn't do that!
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[–]senorbolsa 91 points 2 hours ago
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Yeah but if you've been a sheep farmer all your life you don't really give a fuck, obviously it's not harmful to the farmer so I don't see why one would need to be so squeamish about it.
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[–]sexbucket 16 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form not harmful to the farmer
Surely there's some risk of infection? Orrr
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[–]Technical_Machine_22 48 points 2 hours ago
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Up to that point, the testicles were inside the body away from anything that'd cause an infection.
If anything is getting infected, it'd be the lamb.
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[–]amando96 20 points 2 hours ago
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Human mouths are full of bacteria... I'm pretty sure he disinfected the wound after removing the testicles.
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[–]dukec 9 points 2 hours ago
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I could see there being a risk of infection to the sheep, because mouths are dirty places. Not really much risk of infection to the farmer though.
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[–]gravshift 9 points 2 hours ago
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Sheeps testicles are a delicacy in some parts of the world.
Wouldnt eat them raw of course.
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[–]Slut_Nuggets 21 points 2 hours ago
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Ooh baby I like it rawww
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[–]BurntPaper 25 points 2 hours ago
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Yeah, but like many other things, a purpose-built tool would be a great solution here. Something in the shape of the banding tool, but instead of a band it uses a blade that isn't exposed until you squeeze the mechanism.
We use a tool at work to cut PVC, and with a couple of modifications it would probably be a perfect sheep neutering tool.
I mean, this guy gets an A for getting shit done in the best way he knows, but some very basic engineering could mean that nobody ever needs to put sheep testicles in their mouth again.
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[–]TadDunbar 5 points 1 hour ago
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You think the people already using their teeth for castration would seek such a tool? They'd probably be the first to tell you how well teeth work over other tools. It's not like they're using their teeth out if pure necessity in the first place.
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[–]PoWn3d_0704 5 points 1 hour ago
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That's half the fun.
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[–]thetasigma1355 51 points 2 hours ago
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As someone who has castrated calves by using a 1 inch scalpel blade (no handle), I have a hard time envisioning a process where using your teeth would be any safer/easier than using a super-sharp blade. The only situation would be if you were by yourself and absolutely had to do it then.
Otherwise, a grown adult should be more than sufficient to pin a non-adult sheep against a barn to prevent them from moving. While I've never done sheep, it's really stretching my beliefs to say that using a scalpel isn't far superior to using one's teeth. And, frankly, I have to imagine I'm one of the one people here who has any sort of relatable experiences to what we are talking about.
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[–]wihardy 27 points 1 hour ago
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I've castrated pigs. I agree with you. I used a scalpel and it took about 2 seconds. We had sheep as well but we banded them. I had a neighbor who castrated calves with her teeth and during an ffa visit to her farm, my other buddies who had calves were basically like why the fuck would you bring your mouth into this when you have two perfectly good hands.
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[–]thetasigma1355 29 points 1 hour ago
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Yeah... I'm the son of a veterinarian. I've never heard of anyone using their teeth. I'm not saying I've heard of everything, but I've seen quite a bit (chain-sawing off a cow's horns is a prime memory) and the whole "use your teeth" thing sounds exactly like the type of practical joke that old farm hands would play on newbies who were working farm animals for the first time. The type of practical joke that some idiot never realized was a joke and continued to do it until they started their own farm and passed the practice on to everybody who works for them.
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[–]dudas91 15 points 2 hours ago
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For some reason I don't find the idea of bringing my face near the legs of a restrained and fearful animal is a good idea. Sounds like you need to have a lot of faith in the holder. A small pair of scissors sounds a lot safer than taking a hove to the face.
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[–]JonnyLay 16 points 2 hours ago
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Not safer for the animal, which is the point everyone seems to be missing.
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[–]TheBangleDangle 3 points 1 hour ago
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I feel like a pair of dentures and one or two people holding the sheep would get the job done just as well.. Provided you have strong hands and a fast downward pull.
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[–]Fuck_ketchup 35 points 3 hours ago
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The biter was using both of his hands to hold both of the sheep's testicles outside of his scrotum to get a good clean cut. You could have one person hold the sheep, another to hold the testicles and a third to come over with scissors or something? I'm guessing there's usually just the two of them doing it (him and his wife)
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[–]MrCompassion 23 points 2 hours ago
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You need both hands to pull the scrotum back and get the balls pushed out.
They talk about it in the show. There's a tool but it's not nearly as good.
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[–]avboden 10 points 1 hour ago*
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Okay don't listen to ANYONE who has responded to you. They're all wrong. This is commonly and best done with a proper blade and gauze. Using teeth is completely inappropriate.
I'm a vet student and have looked into this and been around this and there's some extreme issues with this that haven't been brought up.
Surgical castration IS the best, that's absolutely true. However where he goes wrong is using teeth to save time. This is absolutely unacceptable without utilizing a blade. LOTS of farmers do the same technique, but instead of using their teeth, they use a scalpel and some gauze.
Why is using teeth unacceptable? For exactly why you think it would be, increased infections for both the patient and especially the veterinarian. In fact, there have been documented cases of farmers getting infections due to this unsanitary practice.
If surgical (using a blade to do the whole thing, same as what you saw but no teeth. anesthesia not required) isn't an option for some reason, high tension banding systems should be used as they've been shown to have dramatically reduced pain when compared to elastrator rubber banding which is what you saw in the video. The AVMA no longer suggests an elastrator system ever be used for this reason.
TL;DR this is a big risk of infection for the animal and the vet. It should be done with a blade and gauze. That banding system he used in the video is an older method that isn't suggested anymore due it its pain. High tension banding systems are dramatically better.
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[–]In_a_silent_way 7 points 2 hours ago
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But they have other people available to do the holding or cutting...
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[–]TheWistfulWanderer 7 points 2 hours ago*
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Letting other people help is weakness! The way of the sheep castrator must be walked alone or not at all!
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[–]Awfy 3 points 2 hours ago
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I have an invention idea... A device you can use with your mouth to cut without actually needing to put the balls in your mouth.
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[–]oneeighth 51 points 3 hours ago
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Because then less students faint
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[–]Joe1972 47 points 2 hours ago
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A cut, especially with a sharp knife, bleeds a lot longer and heals a lot slower than a tear. To bite/tear them off allows for the fastest healing.
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[–]QuiteOpinionated 75 points 2 hours ago*
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Sorry to be that guy, but can I get a source for this?
On the one hand I can understand it because a tear would offer more surface area and so has more "potential" to heal than an incision but at the same time it seems like a fine slice would do overall less damage to the area.
I'm no biologist so I'd be very interested to hear the reasoning.
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[–]Priff 17 points 1 hour ago*
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The way I've understood this argument is that a clean slice will heal "cleaner" with less scar tissue, but a tear will heal faster, possibly because the tearing causes a greater stress reaction from the body. in human surgery scars are a big issue; in sheep, not so much.
I did some googling, all info on this seems to be about childbirth.
I found no proof either way in the speed of healing, only that cutting during childbirth rather than risking a tear can cause a bigger tear as the tissue is already broken. but with anything other than childbirth I've found no info on cut vs tear.
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[–]SiliconGhosted 43 points 1 hour ago
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I don't have a source but you see the same thing in medicine.
Clean lacerations take much more time to heal and are also harder to stitch shut than ragged or torn flesh. The reason being is that with torn flesh, there's more areas that clot easier.
Here's a fairly decent explanation. http://www.aafp.org/afp/2008/1015/p945.html Bottom of Form * permalink * save * parent * report * give gold * reply load more comments (7 replies) load more comments (4 replies)
[–]Lemon_Destroyer 22 points 2 hours ago
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Don't know why you're being downvoted? Your reasoning is right. Use that Thailand guy (or wherever it was) who got ran over and split in half by that truck. He was alive for hours after that even thought he was completely in half. However, if it was a clean "guillotine" then he would have died in minutes. This is because a crushing motion closes off the blood vessels etc. which stops major bleeding loss whereas a clean cut would allow the blood vessels to bleed out instantly.
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[–]mvrofiq 6 points 2 hours ago
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BECAUSE IT'S TASTE GOOD!
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[–]NomadicAgenda 41 points 1 hour ago
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Hold on, isn't a university professor an "expert"? Why would we trust him?
Actually, come to think of it, who the hell wouldn't consider a sheep rancher to also be an expert on sheep care?
I guess a more accurate message would be, "sometimes experts disagree, and in these cases it's a good idea to collect more data." But I guess that isn't the sorta folksy feel-good thing that my dad's friends would post on facebook.
In this case: more data could be a study that uses various measures of discomfort -- e.g., monitoring certain behaviors or testing cortisol levels -- and determining which was better. But then we'd be trusting scientists, and that's just crazy.
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[–]WorksWork 22 points 1 hour ago
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The animal rights groups are "experts" on humane treatment of animals.
The sheep rancher could be considered an "expert" on sheep ranching (although I'm not sure that is even true given that I doubt many people call up this sheep rancher asking for advice. Chances are he is just an average sheep rancher.)
But sheep ranching involves more disciplines than animal rights ethics, which makes the sheep rancher more of a generalist.
Also, not it doesn't say "don't trust experts", it says beware of them. Single-field experts are great for certain things such as theory, but when putting a theory to practice it is better to consult more interdisciplinary experts ("generalist"), and beware (not "don't trust") the single-field experts who can only really advise within their specific field.
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[–]dildosupyourbutt 5 points 58 minutes ago
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The animal rights groups are "experts" on humane treatment of animals.
But they aren't. They're organizations dedicated to minimizing the suffering of animals. That doesn't mean they necessarily have optimal information at any time.
They're not experts at anything. They're just motivated to a particular goal.
The whole catchphrase is baloney.
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[–]WorksWork 2 points 43 minutes ago*
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That's true, but they still certify things as being humane/not-humane, etc. I doubt people call up the sheep rancher for advice a lot, and he doesn't certify other sheep ranchers.
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[–]rasterguy 462 points 3 hours ago
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Here's Mike Rowe's TED talk on the whole incident. Love Mike, he's a great story teller and speaker.
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[–]thepasttenseofdraw 56 points 2 hours ago
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No shit they were in Craig, I spent a couple of years there drilling.
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[–]RobReynalds 278 points 2 hours ago
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Tell us more about drilling Craig.
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[–]GoggleField 118 points 2 hours ago*
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A balmy summer afternoon, the sun is bright, but has obviously begun it's daily march towards the horizon. The air is thick and heavy with humidity, but an occasional light breeze keeps the mosquitos off.
Craig's grunts and moans are faint, barely perceptible at first, but increase in volume as Craig gets closer to what must be the end. His body pumping up and down, up and down - mountains and valleys of muscle undulate underneath a tank top soaked in sweat. Craigs face twists and contorts, his expression a confusion of pain and ecstasy. One final groan, one final push, and Craig is done. He first rises to his knees, then gets to his feet. His eyes meet those of the man who stands in front of him.
The man looks at Craig through hungry eyes - "Drop and give me another 50 you fucking pussy."
"Yes sir, drill seargent!"
Edit: Thanks for the gold, couldn't have done it without Craig.
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[–]Astromachine 30 points 2 hours ago
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Also an excellent opera singer.
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[–]tubadeedoo 18 points 2 hours ago
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And a great QVC salesman.
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[–]herpty_derpty 3 points 31 minutes ago
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Which was the dirtiest job of all.
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[–]vit05 16 points 1 hour ago
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Anagnorisis
Peripeteia
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[–]zefrogi 9 points 2 hours ago
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Mike is fantastic. He's like a young Attenborough for me, but dirty.
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[–]Slobotic 1937 points 3 hours ago
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I don't think the lesson is to beware of experts, but to be able to recognize one. Albert isn't a generalist; he is the expert. He works with the animals daily and does this regularly. I can't imagine what else would qualify someone as an expert on the subject.
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[–]textaholic 221 points 3 hours ago
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I think the problem is how it's written. It should be: Beware of "experts." This issue is in distinguishing between individuals who are indeed experts, and those who merely claim to be one.
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[–]yen223 75 points 1 hour ago
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Therein lies the problem. Without any knowledge of the subject matter, we aren't capable of distinguishing experts from "experts". For example, Albert could well be talking out of his ass, and none of us would know it. After all, how many of us have experience with sheep castration?
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[–]omniron 53 points 1 hour ago
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I think this is the key point. 99.99% of the people in this thread have zero experience with sheep castration, we're not qualified to judge wether Albert or Mike Rowe are accurate with their sheep castration technique. We don't even know if Albert did the banding correctly.
We just have to "trust" that since it's Mike Rowe's job to have his team of researchers validate his statements, that he's telling us the truth.
And society is built on this trust... it's impossible for an individual to know enough about everything they interact with to make a truly informed decision. We just have to trust people.
Most of what you read on the internet is the musing of a generalist, and very eye-roll worthy.
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[–]Asiansensationz 870 points 3 hours ago
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Probably someone who has Ph.D in animals that never worked in a field and never had any animal testicles near their mouth while kissing plenty of asses.
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[–]RollingApe[] 290 points 2 hours ago
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Yes, somebody who has a PhD in animals.
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[–]guynamedDan 43 points 2 hours ago
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The sophomoric humor of this comment did not go unnoticed, well done.
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[–]Brostradamnus 5 points 54 minutes ago
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I got my PhD in trolls and my Masters in slugs.
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[–]TheWac0Kid 5 points 26 minutes ago
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Well, I've got a Masters in Ghouls and a PhD in Bird Law.
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[–]fishsticks40 73 points 2 hours ago
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I actually know a lot of people with PhDs in animal husbandry and related fields and they all work extensively and closely with animals. Many of them are farmers.
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[–]pftlotg 92 points 1 hour ago
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And they're out standing in their fields!
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[–]doraeminemon 4 points 1 hour ago
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Top of Form please dad ಠ_ಠ
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[–]stack_overpriced 16 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form yeah, these fields usually require actual experience as part of the courses. just like most life sciences.
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[–]gologologolo 123 points 3 hours ago
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Hey that is an amazing summary of what I do with mice everyday: Whatever my advisor tells me I ha e to. Without knowing whack about their lives in the wild besides book knowledge.
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[–]stillalone 76 points 2 hours ago
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How many mice testicles have you bitten off?
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[–]Thefelix01 318 points 2 hours ago
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In a work setting or free time?
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[–]Sthurlangue 43 points 2 hours ago*
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Biting is work. The pole method is for fun NSFWish
Edit: think that's bad? how about this a lil more NSFW
Edit 2: Okaaaaay. Apparently I spend more time on WTF than most. One last unfortunate creature
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[–]YouthMin1 52 points 2 hours ago
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ITT: The thing that made my nuts hide up around my lungs.
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[–]RudeTurnip 16 points 2 hours ago
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Don't forget to floss with your vas deferens.
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[–]skyman724 4 points 1 hour ago
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And masturbate.
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[–]morganmarz 10 points 2 hours ago
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That is an incredibly uncomfortable photograph.
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[–]Brainlaag 10 points 2 hours ago
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Yep, those were the last nuts that squirrel is ever going to crack.
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[–]kleigh9 7 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form poor thing :(
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[–]xOois 20 points 2 hours ago
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What in the name of..
Please tag that as NSFW. ouch.
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[–]flechette 20 points 2 hours ago
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NSFS
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[–]AniGamor 15 points 2 hours ago
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NSFL
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[–]stillalone 9 points 2 hours ago
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NSFSR
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[–]bassow 2 points 2 hours ago
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I felt that in my toes, actually...
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[–]Vigoor 4 points 2 hours ago
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Because biting off one mouse's testicles at a time just isn't enough
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[–]JohnnyMalo 3 points 2 hours ago
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Well, two in each hand with their underside facing you, bite once to get eight testicles. It won't take too long before you've got a nice little pile of mice balls.
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[–]Scrimps 20 points 2 hours ago
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If you work the trades, this is how most of the guys feel about Engineers. 90 percent of the reasons jobs go over budget, don't finish on time, and end up being failures is the engineer.
Nothing like an electrical engineer straight out of college, telling a master electrician with 40 years of experience to install $25,000 worth of electrical directly over an HVAC system. Then arguing with him for 6 months before apologizing and being moved off the job.
I mean, I have seen jobs go $100,000 over budget because the engineer put the handicap washroom door buttons 1 foot away from the inside of the door on the side it swings open. What could possible go wrong when a person in a wheelchair is shoved behind a massive, 200 pound door that will swing open and crush them when they hit the button.
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[–]username_deleted 61 points 1 hour ago
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We aren't all bad, man. And believe me, I have stopped skilled tradesmen from doing some monumentally stupid things in the past. The true culprits here is common sense (or lack thereof) and the ability to admit when your knowledge is lacking. Neither of those traits have anything to do with your job title or training.
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[–]AndroidHelp 18 points 1 hour ago
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What is a 200lb door doing in a bathroom? Is it protecting gold or something? Why would a bathroom require a 200lb automated door?
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[–]tomdarch 12 points 1 hour ago
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What sort of insane project has an engineer locating ADA required elements? I have a lot of respect for good engineers, but they deal with mathematical abstractions. When you need elements of a building located/designed for human interactions, that's where you need an architect.
Bitch all you want about engineers (and architects), a fair number are really good at what we do, have the experience with real projects to have good sense, and a few of us even know to ask the tradespeople how to do things better/smarter.
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[–]calviso 12 points 1 hour ago
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90 percent of the reasons jobs go over budget, don't finish on time, and end up being failures is the engineer
As an electrical engineer who has worked as a project engineer for the largest electrical subcontractor in the Bay Area, and whose father works as a project manager in the same industry, I'll tell you that I've seen my fair share of projects go unfinished because of electrician incompetence. I'd say it's more 60%/40% as opposed to your 90%/10% claim.
I will agree though, there are A LOT of engineers who think they're hot shit just because they have a degree. But that's what sets good engineers apart from bad engineers. Good engineers listen to the advice and council of others, and go to those with more experience when they don't have the answers themselves.
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[–]tdt30 47 points 2 hours ago*
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No academic expert on sheep castration has never worked in a field. But even if there was one he/she would know more than a farmer with no academic background. Academic knowledge is the junction of the knowledge of thousands or even millions of persons who had the first hand experience. Getting together this knowledge in books and papers makes it easier to learn it so you don't have to repeat the same mistakes someone did and doesn't need to repeat the same experiments someone did. So you are free to generate new knowledge and put it in books and so on. This is how almost all human knowledge was generated. Your thinking that only hands on experience counts and books don't matter is what generated the dark age in the medieval era. The proof that putting shit on books to generate more knowledge works is the fact you are reading this. Tell me how using only practical experience you could have a way to make little crystals align to show a message someone typed thousands of miles away a couple of seconds ago.
About this case, if the media calls Humane Socitey or Peta, they will talk to an expert on talking to the media. If you want a real expert on sheep, call a veterinary school and ask for their expert. But they don't want that because it's show about a narrator that suddenly becomes an "expert" on a job every week on a network that shows things like the Megalodon hoax. The only thing they want is create buzz and get more audience. And attacking intellectuals and real experts is unfortunately a great way to do that in America today, be they biologists, climate scientists or sheep castration experts.
Edit: crossed a word
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[–]ciggey 16 points 1 hour ago
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I do agree with your point about attacking intellectuals and academics as somehow inferior to hands on "common sense knowledge". But I don't think that a veterinary school professor could give any more insight into this matter than the Humane Society or Peta.
No one academic expert on sheep castration has never worked in a field
If there was an academic expert on sheep castration they damn better have worked on a farm. Academic expertise isn't just reading and thinking, it's doing studies and tests. There might be one or two people who have done actual studies around sheep castration, and those people probably won't work at your local university. Albert might very well be one of the best experts in sheep castration, even without any rigorous empirical studies. In this particular field he is a real expert.
The best way to take the testicles of a sheep is something that you can't think yourself to. Your average biology professor has no idea of what's the best method. But Albert does.
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[–]watitdo 15 points 1 hour ago
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You do realize that there are actual agriculture schools right? We aren't talking about veterinarians or biologists... We are talking about people with degrees in animal husbandry. Yes, that does exist, and yes they do work in the field like this guy AND publish and read scholarly articles. These people aren't ivory tower academics, but they do have advanced degrees that deal with these precise issues... And there aren't just one or two of them but thousands.
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[–]Neurokeen 3 points 53 minutes ago*
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And even some people in academic disciplines that aren't so obviously applied often work with these animals. I know a few people in my physiology department that primarily work in reproductive endocrinology that have, at various points in their careers, spent days wading through muddy farms taking samples (smears and blood usually) from ewes.
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[–]missachlys 3 points 28 minutes ago
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My local university is one of the best schools for animal science in the country. I am actually in their animal science program, though as an undergrad. There are many, many of them like it. No one who has an advanced degree in animal sciences got through without knowing extensively about reproduction, castration, and working at least a few times in the field.
It would be like having a doctor that never took Ochem and the lab.
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[–]s1thl0rd 42 points 3 hours ago
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I know it's probably un economical, but why can't they inject a small amount of anesthetic before ripping off? And why don't animals completely spaz or after this like I would imagine a human would. I think a man can die if he gets hit hard enough in the balls, ripping them off would be insane.
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[–]Duffalpha 90 points 3 hours ago
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I think there is very little connecting tissue between their tiny balls and the body. They are basically just cutting a line in the scrotum, then severing that connector... No ball crushing or ripping.
When we do it to cows we definitely do use a numbing gel/injection.
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[–]goosiegirl 34 points 2 hours ago*
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Top of Form this and with range animals like that, most of the stress will likely come from being tightly confined. The time to administer and wait on the anesthetic just increases the amount of stress.
We used to ban male calves and then switched to cutting (though we use hands or a scalpel, thankfully!) And I definitely think the cut calves heal faster and are back to normal quicker. Banning seems more humane because there's no blood or open wound, but those calves would waddle for a couple days as circulation was cut off and just took a few days to be back to normal. The cut calves would eat just fine the same night.
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[–]AnnaFlyte 26 points 2 hours ago
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Sheep get incredibly stressed by prolonged restriant. I have had them knock themselves out while trying to administer medication before. The extra time it would take to give a shot and wait for it to activate really isnt worth it. They dont give a shit about the slight pain... but they give a lot of shits about being held down to administer a precision shot.
Its more humane this way because this is what the sheep is less stressed by. Ignore your human projection of emotions. They dont care about their balls.
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[–]itsmyotherface 7 points 2 hours ago
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Not economical or time efficient. You have to inject, wait for it to take effect, then castrate. I'd imagine it would take at least twice as long. Plus you run the risk of hitting a nerve, and leaving the animal unable to walk until it wears off.
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[–]s1thl0rd 3 points 2 hours ago
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Well they have numbing gels that can avoid the "hitting the nerve" problem. Probably wouldn't want to use your teeth to clip it though.
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[–]zgh5002 2 points 2 hours ago
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What you would use is lidocaine. It hurts worse than the actual castration.
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[–]arriver 39 points 2 hours ago
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Hate to say it but I think the reason Rowe drew that specific conclusion is because he himself is a generalist, not an expert. It's a very self-flattering interpretation.
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[–]Rockends 9 points 2 hours ago
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I believe he's referring to expert in humane treatment of animals. Which you'd think PETA or others should be. Where a rancher/farmer is not usually considered an expert in the humane treatment of animals.
I don't think anyone could doubt a rancher is more of an expert at raising sheep than peta.
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[–]nashife 24 points 2 hours ago
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He or his writers are using a very cynical definition of experts. My guess is that it's to appeal to the general public audience that is the target demographic.
I too wish that he'd recognized Albert as an expert. I think the way he frames it here feeds into a frustrating form of anti-intellectualism by NOT saying how Albert was the real expert.
But, that's just how this show works. In an effort to celebrate the "everyperson", they choose to cast "Experts" in a bad light, and would never call the "real people doing dirty jobs" experts in what they do.
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[–]elgiorgie 5 points 1 hour ago
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Yeah, that conclusion made me nervous. It seems very easily misconstrued as anti-science movement that we have going on in the States now. I like your conclusion far better.
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[–]eliaspowers 95 points 2 hours ago*
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Really this is whole clip is a reason to defer to experts. If you consult actual scientific studies, here's what they find:
According to research (Kent et al 1993 and Kent et al 1998) surgical castration is the most painful method of castration, as lambs that are surgically castrated have higher amounts of cortisol in their bloodstream compared to lambs castrated using other methods. Cortisol is released by the adrenal glands to help the body manage stress. If an animal (or human) is suffering pain or distress cortisol levels will increase in the blood and the saliva. A New Zealand study (Lester et al 1996) found that that the greatest pain response of all methods occurred with surgical castration. The severe distress responses of lambs also lasted for considerably longer, around eight hours, compared with 3.5 hours or less for other castration methods. Surgical castration also has the greatest potential for infection and fly infestation.
But, no, let's defer to this one random guy's judgment about how uncomfortable he thinks lambs are based upon his anecdotal visual judgments.
Edit: here's the list of references to which the in-text citations in the blockquote refer.
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[–]procrastinating_PhD 140 points 2 hours ago
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The idea that cortisol levels correspond to pain and only pain is blatantly wrong. Having an open wound would definitely also contribute to the body's stress response and in my mind makes comparison of cortisol levels relation to pain meaningless in this case.
\MD/PhD
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[–]eliaspowers 20 points 2 hours ago*
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This criticism I find a lot more compelling than Rowe's facile video. Would banding not also elevate cortisol levels? Is there a better way to measure animal pain without brain imaging?
Edit: Here is the Kent study that is referenced, it seems a bit more compelling than the gloss provided in the blockquote above.
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[–]sacrecide 13 points 1 hour ago
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I believe that observing the animal behavior is the best way to determine pain. Im assuming that the only reason we linked cortisol to pain in animals is either by observing animal behavior or by applying human physiology to animals.
So why not skip a step and observe things more generally.
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[–]supercore23 12 points 2 hours ago
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It could be that cortisol doesn't tell the whole story. If I had to guess, given the farmers info and yours, the lamb experience a large amount of stress during the castration but afterwards the stress level is lower. Cortisol levels drop over time but they start out high. With banding, the stress level during the banding may be lower but stress period lasts longer.
The question then is, what is more humane? A lot of pain at once followed by a fairly quick return to normal? Or a moderate amount of pain spread out over several hours or days?
For what it's worth, I'd go with the quick high pain option if I had the option.
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[–]paranormal_penguin 7 points 1 hour ago
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If you read his quote, you would see that they also concluded that the pain lasts for much longer with surgical castration compared to other methods:
The severe distress responses of lambs also lasted for considerably longer, around eight hours, compared with 3.5 hours or less for other castration methods.
So it's actually more pain now, more pain later. There's no quick return to normal.
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[–]Spiral_flash_attack 28 points 2 hours ago
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This is what kills me about this whole clip. Anybody who knows even a little about biology and medicine knows that the banding is the superior method. Biting them off like that is horrible both from a pain perspective and from an infection perspective.
I mean if you need more proof, we use banding/ligation techniques on humans. The preferred method for removing a hemorrhoid is using a rubber band. Surgical removal is considered more risky and much more painful, and that's with anesthetic during the surgery and pain pills during recovery.
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[–]trisight 42 points 2 hours ago
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You mean doctors don't bite off hemorrhoids?
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[–]9000_red 5 points 1 hour ago
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If they were bad enough, I would let them.
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[–]hung-like-a-horsefly 9 points 2 hours ago*
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Surgical castration does NOT have a greater risk of infection than banding. Banding leaves a shriveling, decaying mass of flesh hanging out under the animal, versus a very small surgical incision.
Also, stress levels couldn't have been too high considering the animals are up and playing with each other moments after. Where as the banded animal was lethargic. Cortisol levels =\= pain and stress. This relation is weak at best.
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[–]DeSanti 7 points 3 hours ago
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I think it has more to do with experience versus rationale / logic -- or the old ethos vs logos principle.
Now they don't directly oppose each other, but someone with little experience in the actual field could still find what would seem like a logic idea of castration rather than doing something that works out of experience.
Albert obviously has experience, the man does it for a living. The 'experts' they're referring to might not have the same amount of experience at all.
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[–]bombsaway1979 267 points 3 hours ago
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In this instance, isn't Albert the expert? Because he does the shit every day?
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[–]producer35 53 points 3 hours ago
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I have occasionally heard the truism "An expert is someone 50 miles from home." Albert just lives too close to his work.
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[–]Grays42 4 points 40 minutes ago*
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That may be a saying, but don't call it a truism, because someone can disagree. A tautology is a statement that is logically incontestable, like "Everything that is true is true", or "All oranges are either ripe or not ripe."
[edit:] You're right, I misstated the definition of a truism.
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[–]Pelley42 7 points 26 minutes ago
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Sorry, those are both tautologies. A statement which is intrinsically redundant by nature of it's content.
A truism would be something that needs not worth mention because it is redundant by the implications of it's content, such as "all blue things are colored" or "oranges are fruit."
Regardless, it still isn't a truism, it's just folk wisdom.
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[–]actuallyimmeditating 3 points 15 minutes ago
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Can't a truism also be used as meaning "cliche" or something?
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[–]Guicentric 88 points 2 hours ago
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The banding method is something that makes humans feel good not the animal.
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[–]GhostOfWhatsIAName 23 points 1 hour ago
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That's why it's "humane" as in, looking less cruel as an act for us humans than the other method.
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[–]Guicentric 9 points 1 hour ago
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It's an illusion that masks the reality and if the goal is to minimize pain for the subject, then the word humane is obsolete.
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[–]tdt30 28 points 2 hours ago
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If the media calls Humane Socitey or Peta, they will talk to expert on talking to the media. If you want real expert on sheep, call a veterinary school and ask for their expert.
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[–]Dirtpig 141 points 4 hours ago
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I would have to agree. But wow, the balls on that guy...
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[–]DuckTapeHero 45 points 4 hours ago
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It's part of the job
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[–]majorpsyche 10 points 2 hours ago
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It's a dirty job...
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[–]-kunai 23 points 3 hours ago
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Not anymore.
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[–]justgrant2009 15 points 2 hours ago
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But wow, the balls in that guy's mouth...
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[–]Styx1er 25 points 3 hours ago
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I didn't know that somewhere out there in the world there's a guy the has to bite sheep's balls off with his teeth.
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[–]um3k 19 points 2 hours ago
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This video turned my testicles into ovaries. At least my kidneys have company now.
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[–]mysticmusti 102 points 3 hours ago
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JEZUS that was painful to watch but "beware the expert" seems like a weird conclusion considering Albert is obviously also an expert, working everyday with these animals. I also don't really understand why everyone else says that long constant pain is more humane than short pain that heals better, I think these people just think that less blood is always more humane or something like that.
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[–]stoobah 36 points 3 hours ago
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You don't think it's a good idea to beware a guy who bites off testicles for a living?
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[–]bubbameister33 17 points 2 hours ago
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That's nuts.
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[–]TurboGranny 4 points 1 hour ago
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"Beware Self Proclaimed Experts" maybe?
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[–]ThisIsWhyIFold 13 points 1 hour ago
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Top of Form considering Albert is obviously also an expert
What Mike is talking about is the perceived expertise of orgs like PETA who anoint themselves as the be-all and end-all of animal welfare.
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[–]damn_jexy 12 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form but can it be done with a tool instead of teeth ? like a clipper ?
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[–]StantheLumberjack 69 points 4 hours ago
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Its a lot like why you tear the band-aid off or jump into the cold water. Just get it over with.
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[–]aacoward 167 points 3 hours ago*
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YES! Exactly like that! Getting your balls ripped off is EXACTLY like ripping a band-aid off ;)
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[–]bassmansandler 40 points 3 hours ago
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It has to be done, or else the western united states will look like ireland, with millions of these basterds running around.
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[–]zomgwtfbbq 22 points 3 hours ago
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Pikeys?
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[–]__PROMETHEUS__ 12 points 2 hours ago
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Dags everywhere
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[–]Coogcheese 50 points 2 hours ago*
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Somehow I'm thinking the sheep are probably all..."it'd be 'less cruel' if you just stayed away from my na-a-a-a-a-ads altogether."
Edit: Let me add...In a quick search, 2 pages so far mind you, I can't find a 'humane' reason to cut their balls off. Can someone enlighten me on that? All I'm finding is its more convenient for the rancher.
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[–]pl487 24 points 1 hour ago
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It makes them easier to manage, as they don't get the hormone surges that tell them to battle for dominance, sometimes against the rancher. My dad once got his kneecap shattered by an angry ram.
It makes them grow at the same rate as the ewes so you can sell them all together.
But most importantly, it keeps them from impregnating your ewes. If you don't castrate, you have to keep two entirely separate flocks separated by multiple sturdy fences, or you give up control of your genetic stock. If you do castrate, you can bring in a few rams of high-quality genetic stock, or do artificial insemination.
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[–]1Epsilon 18 points 1 hour ago
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Couple reasons: 1. Hormones produced by the testicles will make the meat in market animals less appealing. 2. Animals with testicles tend to be more aggressive; removing the testicles makes them more docile protecting them from fighting other males, and fighting the people that work around them.
Source: Grew up on a hog farm
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[–]princesskiki 4 points 1 hour ago
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This is dead on.
Source: Ag school degree. My roommate also worked on a hog farm.
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[–]laserbeanz 16 points 1 hour ago
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They would have too many kids
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[–]whiteout14 244 points 3 hours ago*
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Albert has been a good friend of my family for a very long time, real nice guy and an avid hunter. he wouldn't ever purposefully hurt an animal, especially one belonging to his stock. I was never there during the castrations, but we would always end up frying them up and serving them alongside other foods. I haven't seen him since a was just a kid, but anytime we went hunting in Colorado he would be part of the hunting party. His house only had an outhouse that was like 30 yards away from the cabin (fucking scary to go at dark) and he would always dip a tin ladle in a stream running along the front of the house and sit there drinking cup after cup. he's literally a mountain man and good god was this guy fond of Oreos.
Edit 1: For the people who can't understand how an avid hunter would never purposefully hurt an animal, call your mothers into the room so she can spoon feed you these words in a way that you can better understand. There is a difference between hurting an animal for the sake of hunting/harvesting them, and hurting an animal for the sake of causing unnecessary pain when it could be easily avoided. If you're still confused, please, don't participate in any amount of public voting.
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[–]xodus989 73 points 3 hours ago
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Albert and his wife actually seemed pained that they had to do it that way. They looked upset.
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[–]whiteout14 63 points 3 hours ago
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They really care a great deal about the animals they handle
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[–]hamsammicher 88 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form good god was this guy fond of Oreos
Sure he was. Needed something to get rid of the taste of balls.
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[–]axellex 13 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form well, he already has goat 'milk' in his mouth, might as well pair it with some oreos
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[–]cdc194 4 points 45 minutes ago
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Wait, there are people that are NOT fond of Oreos?
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[–]pippx 20 points 3 hours ago
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That video is a bit gimmicky. The TED talk he did on the same episode/topic was much better. Link here.
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[–]PleaseVote4Pedro 32 points 4 hours ago
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Top of Form http://imgur.com/Y5cQEFV Bottom of Form * permalink * save * report * give gold * reply load more comments (1 reply)
[–]SalubriousStreets 10 points 2 hours ago
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This was a really awkward video to watch when eating this lamb gyro.
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[–]Novh 4 points 3 hours ago
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My balls shriveled back into my stomach when I saw the guy put his head down to bite them.
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[–]renderless 5 points 2 hours ago
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I'll just leave this here http://youtu.be/fftnExG-WFg
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[–]MathildaIsTheBest 6 points 54 minutes ago*
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In his TED talk, he just says that the Humane Society tells him that's how it's done, not how they recommend doing it. He even goes on to say that he asked PETA and he says, "They don't like it, but they confirm it". He is saying PETA, HSUS, and the ASPCA all agree that this is how it is typically done, not that this how it should be done. On this pageabout the wool industry, PETA states:
Male lambs are castrated when they are between 2 and 8 weeks old, either by making an incision and cutting their testicles out or with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply—one of the most painful methods of castration possible.
For the show, they made it seem that animal rights organizations were recommending banding, but in his TED talk, he specifically said that PETA confirmed what he had asked him while also stating their dislike for that method, so he didn't ask them for a recommendation.
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[–]LurkerMcLurkerton 49 points 3 hours ago
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I hope that guy flosses.
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[–]MrAlexAstro 20 points 2 hours ago
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Top of Form then masturbates
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[–]baboonredass 9 points 3 hours ago
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Dentist here. I hope that guy uses mouth wash too...
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[–]brickoftr00th 9 points 2 hours ago
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Doesn't mouthwash have only a slight effect on oral health? I'm looking into it because apparently I'm allergic to either my new toothpaste or my new mouthwash and have been wondering if I should get a new mouthwash or just discontinue use.
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[–]Hurricane_Viking 5 points 2 hours ago
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Houston, We are meta.
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[–]avboden 11 points 1 hour ago*
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Vet student here, i've looked into this and been around this and there's some extreme issues with this that haven't been brought up. Hear me out. TL;DR it's a fine method but use a knife, not your teeth.
Surgical(edit: by surgical i mean what he did, immediate removal) castration IS the best, that's absolutely true. However where he goes wrong is using teeth to save time. This is absolutely unacceptable without utilizing a blade. LOTS of farmers do the same technique, but instead of using their teeth, they use a scalpel and some gauze.
Why is using teeth unacceptable? For exactly why you think it would be, increased infections for both the patient and especially the veterinarian. In fact, there have been documented cases of farmers getting infections due to this unsanitary practice.
If surgical (using a blade to do the whole thing, same as what you saw but no teeth. anesthesia not required) isn't an option for some reason, high tension banding systems should be use as they've been shown to have dramatically reduced pain when compared to elastrator rubber banding which is what you saw in the video.
TL;DR this is a big risk of infection for the animal and the vet. It should be done with a blade and gauze. That banding system he used in the video is an older method that isn't suggested anymore due it its pain. High tension banding systems are dramatically better.
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[–]satansheat 4 points 40 minutes ago
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PETA is the biggest joke in the world. They kill more dogs than places that kill dogs do.
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[–]blenman 4 points 27 minutes ago
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Sooo, I get that "banding" is a longer endured pain and that is crueler than what Albert did, but why does it have to be HIS TEETH. Surely there are sharper and quicker ways to extract the testicles... right?
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[–]GaryQueenofScots 6 points 1 hour ago
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Top of Form ewwwwwwwe Bottom of Form * permalink * save * report * give gold * reply
[–]logic_card 10 points 3 hours ago
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Top of Form but do you have to use your teeth, necessarily o_o Bottom of Form * permalink * save * report * give gold * reply
[–]bungsnoid 6 points 2 hours ago
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Yes. If you use a knife the cut is too clean and so the lamb will bleed a lot more and healing actually takes longer. When you bite it it crushes the capillaries so the lamb does not bleed as much and the healing is faster.
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[–]PinheadX 3 points 1 hour ago
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Top of Form but couldn't one invent a simple tool that mimics the action of a mouth and teeth? Something with a suction ball and a clamping blade that wasn't that sharp… I just don't understand why introducing the chance of bacterial infection is a great idea.
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[–]nice_fucking_kitty 18 points 3 hours ago
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Seen this one a while ago and it really kept me thinking. This is a great example of how modern day science/society often loses touch with reality. Making things sound better but at the same time really making them worse. That and Mike Rowe is a bossman.
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[–]somewhere-somehow 18 points 2 hours ago
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"You're cruel for killing that chicken, but pass me that Caesar Salad. Love that shit."
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[–]FireFromTheVoid 5 points 2 hours ago
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To all the people asking why he didn't use a knife, he did, he cut them open then squeezed them out THEN used his teeth. He didn't just chomp their ball sack off.
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[–]lt_dagg 2 points 2 hours ago
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His TEDTalk on the subject is really good, worth the watch
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[–]Aresmar 3 points 2 hours ago
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Maybe it is just me....but I would call the guy who raises sheep a sheep expert.......
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[–]chefadrock 2 points 1 hour ago
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His full TED talk about this is way better than a short clip. He begins to go after OSHA as well. http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs?language=en Bottom of Form * permalink * save * report * give gold * reply
[–]ColonelPenguin 3 points 35 minutes ago
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I was wondering if Peta actually advocated the band technique, but I only found this: http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-clothing/wool-industry/ Within weeks of birth, lambs’ ears are hole-punched, their tails are chopped off, and the males are castrated without painkillers. Male lambs are castrated when they are between 2 and 8 weeks old, either by making an incision and cutting their testicles out or with a rubber ring used to cut off blood supply—one of the most painful methods of castration possible.
According to Peta, this is very painfull. Does anybody have a quote from Peta saying differently?
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[–]Athrul 3 points 26 minutes ago*
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Calling PETA animal experts and a farmer an animal generalist.
Well, that's one way to look at it. It's not the right one, but it sure is one.
EDIT: After thinking and reading about it for a while, I have changed my mind a bit.
In all honesty, I am not convinced that the behaviour these lambs are showing after the band is applied is indicating only pain. There have been a few studies on the pain associated with different castration methods and they have tried to find physiological indicators for pain and surgical removal (I guess this is comparable) has consistently resulted in more pain according to these variables.
I think it is possible that they are lying down because it is uncomfortable.
Here are the first three links I have found that mentioned these studies: * http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/welfaredockcast.html * http://animalwelfareapproved.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/TAFS-10-Sheep-Castration.pdf * http://www.sheep101.info/201/dockcastrate.html
And, finally, biting them off?! Do you want your sheep to get an infection? Because that's how your sheep will get an infection.
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[–]terriblehuman 3 points 25 minutes ago
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My ex-girlfriend knew how to castrate a sheep with her teeth. Needless to say, our breakup was amicable.
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[–]hzlaugher 3 points 24 minutes ago
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Top of Form we care a lot about sheep castration
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[–]pasaroanth 3 points 14 minutes ago
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Bottom line is a guy who is willing to put some sheep testicles in his mouth in lieu of the much cleaner method of putting a rubber band around his sack is obviously not doing it for the sport of it.
It's really easy to sit behind a computer or TV screen and judge people and topics of which we know little to nothing about, but it's a whole different world for the guys that do it every day.
Also, fuck PETA.
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[–]dirty_ronin 4 points 2 hours ago
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Banding IS more humane... for the humans.
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[–]thepoultron 13 points 2 hours ago
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It's funny the things people assume would be 'better' for an animal through anthropomorphism. Who are we to think we know what an animal truly wants, emotionally? I work in the chicken industry and we're perpetually damned if we do, damned if we don't, to an almost laughable extent.
Let's consider if we raised 'wild' chickens in big, open farms with a 'natural' diet and no antibiotics ever. Sunny, happy chickens running around plucking little wormies from the ground and living the happiest life possible until their predestined demise. That sounds good right? Sign me up!
But guess what. If that was how we raised chickens, the animal rights folks would still come protesting.
"How HORRIBLE those little chickens don't have protection from the elements and predators!"
So we build them well-made little chicken houses.
"How TERRIBLE you force those birds have to live in the cold and the dark!"
So we give them heaters and indoor lighting, windows and doors.
"How DARE you leave those birds to find their own water and food! They could starve!"
So we dig a well, provide water lines and install feeders full of grain-based feed meal.
"And how DARE you allow a chicken to get sick and not help it!"
So we vaccinate the birds against diseases and treat them with expensive medicines if they get sick. (My company does no growth-promoting antibiotic use; it's only if the birds get sick, typically less than 5% of flocks)
And guess what. Surprise, surprise, we're back to where we are today, where chickens are "crammed into dark, dusty chicken houses where birds are force fed growth promoting antibiotics and have no room!"
And I'm sure there actually ARE terrible individuals out there who are cutting corners and disregard the respectful, humane treatment of these animals... But they're the crazy, 1% exception to the rule that gets plastered all over the posters, demonizing us all.
I know we can't win, and I know as long as we process animals to feed the world's demand, the activists won't be happy. I just wish we could be supportive of each other and work together for improved quality of life and quality of health for the animals, vs the anthropomorphized circle jerk that is today's situation. : /
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[–]Sms_Boy 17 points 1 hour ago
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As a vet nurse, the chicken industry is brutal. Battery hens etc are really bad I've seen them first hand. Free range is great if done properly.
But some people aren't out for compromise remember, it's their way or the high way.
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[–]azamatoSC2 14 points 2 hours ago
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Whoever still supports PETA is a retard anyway
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[–]copycat 3 points 2 hours ago
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This is where I draw the line between animal cruelty and self-interest.
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[–]Kolfinna 2 points 2 hours ago
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This is what drugs are for.
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