RAEBURN: Now, I'm betting you have a real reason, besides the fact that we can barely understand what he says sometimes, for saying that he's - wouldn't be very good at GPS.
But before you answer that, let me just remind people I'm Paul Raeburn. This is SCIENCE FRIDAY from NPR News. All right…
Dr. NASS: Okay…
RAEBURN: …so why would Dylan be a bad idea?
Dr. NASS: The problem is that our brains are built that when we hear a voice, we associate with that voice - especially if it's a person's voice we know - all the characteristics and benefits and negatives associated with that voice.
Now when it comes to navigation, we want someone who's known as being very precise, who's careful, who is alert and attentive to detail, and that's certainly not the image that Bob Dylan portrays.
So generally, in fact, the idea of using famous people - unless those people are famous for exactly the things we would want in a GPS. So, if anyone knew what Hiawatha's voice sounded like…
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: …that would be a great voice for a GPS. But Bob Dylan is best served in other ways.
RAEBURN: Now, tell us just a little bit more about - just briefly tick off a few of the other things you've done in machine-human communications. Then, we can talk about one or two.
Dr. NASS: Well, we have a lot of recent work in the car space, having to do, for example, showing that the voice in the car as being about Bob Dylan. But for happy drivers, they drive much better with the happy voice in the car. But depressed voice - depressed people and sad and upset people actually drive more safely when the navigation system has a subdued voice.
We've been doing work now on disagreeing with robots, one of the - and robots disagreeing with us. One of the beliefs in the robots community for a long time was robots must always do what people say. But as their abilities increase, it might be logical and plausible for robot to disagree and say, hey, you know, I think, you're doing it wrong.
So we've been doing research on how we can get people to be more accepting of that. We've also been doing research on number of voice issues, what voices are good for various activities, including navigation. And, also, a lot of work on new systems for recommendations, how can computers and Web sites more effectively recommend to people.
RAEBURN: Okay, we'll get into as many of those as we can. But we now have the phones back, ta-da. And so, I'm going to take a couple of calls now on multitasking. We're jumping around a little bit here. But let me see what we got. Jesse(ph), are you there?
JESSE (Caller): Yeah, I'm here.
RAEBURN: Go ahead.
JESSE: Just fascinating topic, super interested in this. And I got many questions, but I'll only ask one. I noticed when I was in school many, many years ago, in college, that I had trouble sitting in a lecture and trying to learn the material and take notes at the same time. And this has transferred over into the work world in meetings, you know, etc. Some people seem to be really good at this, and other folks, like myself, are terrible at it. It seems to be that even while I'm focused on this one task or project, I have a tough time, you know, keeping - while multitasking or keeping attention, I guess.
RAEBURN: Let me stop you, Jesse, because we're moving up to a break. But go ahead, Clifford Nass, give him a quick answer if you can, please.
Dr. NASS: So, the quick answer is, people who seem to be very good at, for example, sitting in a meeting and doing emails, etc., are actually very bad at it. As far as the first question, we haven't specifically studied task-related multitasking - that is, writing and learning them and taking notes. But we certainly know that people who are sitting in lectures and texting, chatting, friending, you know, Facebooking, etc., are not doing very well.
RAEBURN: Let me pause for a moment. We'll be right back after this short break.
(Soundbite of music)
RAEBURN: From NPR News, this is SCIENCE FRIDAY. I'm Paul Raeburn.
We're talking with Clifford Nass, professor of sociology at Stanford University about multitasking, and machine and human communication, and all kinds of interesting things.
Let me take a call from - let's see here, we've got Brian(ph) on Long Island. Do I have you?
BRIAN (Caller): Yes, you do.
RAEBURN: Okay.
BRIAN: Thank you for taking my call.
RAEBURN: Yeah. Go ahead, Brian.
BRIAN: Dr. Nass, the question is that when people are multitasking, what is their ability to accomplish tasks successfully? Do they have a greater success rate or a lesser success rate?
Dr. NASS: They actually have a lesser success rate, which has been established numerous times. What our results are showing is that if they're frequently multitasking, not only do they have a lower success rate when they're multitasking, they actually have a lower success rate when they are not multitasking.
BRIAN: Interesting. The reason why I ask that is that I find that in multitasking, you have to kind of train the brain to be able to focus on entities and take a time slice of each piece. For example, the prior caller had talked about trying to take a lecture and at the same time, write notes. The methodology I use for that is mind-mapping, where I draw up pictures that symbolizes what's being spoken about so that the recall level works much better.
It's kind of what the filing cabinet process you had spoke about. Any comments on that?
Dr. NASS: Yes. The using of multiple media to do the same task - that is, let's say, for example, learning material - we don't actually have a clear handle on what the effects are on the brain. What we do know is that the effects when you're doing different tasks, for example, sitting in a lecture and drawing pictures about the lecture but at the same time, you know, reading something or texting or talking on the phone or chatting, or any of those other activities, those are the ones we really know about.
But you're certainly right. Mind-mapping is a well-established strategy for improving memory.
RAEBURN: Thanks, Brian.
BRIAN: Thank you very much.
RAEBURN: Let's take a call from Sonia(ph) in San Francisco. Welcome, Sonia.
SONIA (Caller): Hi. Thanks for taking my call.
RAEBURN: Sure.
SONIA: My question is in relation to whether multitasking is more prevalent in one generation compared to another - for example, with Gen Y and baby boomers -and if the implications are different for these different age groups?
RAEBURN: That's a great question. My teenage daughter used to keep about 30 IMs going simultaneously. I was amazed.
(Soundbite of laughter)
RAEBURN: Now I understand it's a problem. But anyway, go ahead, Clifford Nass.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: What we're actually seeing is different patterns of multitasking in different generations. We certainly see among the Gen Yers, the teenagers and 20s of this generation, showing an enormous desire to multitask. What we're seeing among older age groups, which I find fascinating, is the - being forced upon them.
For example, in the workplace, being required to keep multiple chat windows open, etc., not by volition and choice, the way we see in the younger generation. In the really, really young, we're actually also, very surprisingly, seeing multitasking. For example, our recent research has suggested that if women are watching television while they're breastfeeding, the babies are actually spending an enormous amount of time watching TV.
And so, even at that very young age, and then as kids get older, we see kids sitting in front of the TV, but not just sitting in front of the TV, but with toys in front of them and books in front of them. And then in the - what we're seeing more and more, and another one of our colleagues, Roy Pea, is interested in this area: the social multitasking, the idea that for even very young kids, grade school kids, a lot of their social interactions are becoming, you know, four chats at once or four interactions simultaneously.
And so at different ages, we're seeing different types of things, but it seems to be a growing trend in all age groups.
RAEBURN: Thanks, Sonia.
SONIA: Thanks.
RAEBURN: Certainly I think we - can we recommend that women who are breastfeeding listen to NPR instead of watching TV? Does that come out of this research?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: Yeah, absolutely. They think - I don't know what the babies will get out of it, though. That's the only problem.
(Soundbite of laughter)
RAEBURN: Now, here's a question. These people who are doing all this multitasking, even unknowingly to their own detriment, are they getting some reward out of that? Is there some reason why they keep doing it or want to do it?
Dr. NASS: Well, one of the theories we have that one of the authors on this paper, Anthony Wagner, is very interested in is the idea of a tendency towards exploration versus exploitation. Exploration refers to the desire to just gather more and more information, whereas exploitation involves the focused concentration in information.
So it very well may be that for these high multitaskers, they're getting a tremendous amount of gratification out of just receiving information. And he intends to look at that, among other ways, by looking at the neuronal structures here and looking at pleasure centers in the brain, etc., to see whether they just don't get a kick out of it.
RAEBURN: Very interesting. Jim in Washington, are you there?
JIM (Caller): Yes.
RAEBURN: Go ahead.
JIM: I was wondering if there were any similarities or differences with like, task management issues for people with ADD in the research that you're doing.
Dr. NASS: It's a great question. We haven't explicitly studied ADD and ADHD as an important area. One of the things that we can guess, at least, is if it's true that using multiple media simultaneously is causing these problems - we don't know which is cause and which is effect - then certainly the groups, individuals with ADD who are likely to be finding a great desire to do this sort of quick multitasking are probably advised to really work hard not to do it and instead, at the very least, to switch from a media task to a non-media task, be it walk around, close their eyes, etc.
But this incessant multitasking, to the extent it does, in fact, affect the way the brain works - which we have some evidence for - they would be very well advised not to make their difficulties worse.
RAEBURN: Thanks, Jim.
Now, we talked a little while ago about gender and multitasking and so forth. I'd like to get back on to some of our talk about GPS - we're bouncing around a bit today.
Dr. NASS: Sure.
RAEBURN: Now, you have a story, I think, about BMW and gender and GPS systems.
Dr. NASS: That's right. When BMW introduced their Five Series in Germany, it was an amazing technological feat. It was probably, by far, the most advanced navigation system of its kind at the time. And they put it with a female voice. And German drivers - actually, they had to have a product recall because German drivers refused to take directions from a woman. And this actually was one…
RAEBURN: Of course, American drivers are far more sophisticated than that …
(Soundbite of laughter)
RAEBURN: Since you didn't study them, we'll assume that's the case.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: I don't want to engage…
(Soundbite of laughter)
RAEBURN: All right.
Dr. NASS: Cross-country comparison. But the idea was that people bring to bear all their social rules, expectations, etc., when they're using technology, particularly voices. And thus, that's why these effects happen.
RAEBURN: Now, this is a profound - is it a profound thing about people's attitudes about gender? Or is it just something about the mechanics of these machines?
Dr. NASS: Well, it's more than about gender. It's about everything. We have done studies, for example, showing that the emotion of the voice in a car matters, that the personality of the voice - if the voice of the car's personality matches yours, you're more likely to take its advice and suggestions.
We've been able to show that emotional-sounding voices by the car are different than non-emotional voices. Voices you're told are coming directly from the car are psychologically different than voices that are coming from a distant way station. So our brains are evolved to treat voices we hear as coming from humans, and applying all of the human rules and heuristics and thus, the fact that it's on a technology, we don't have an on-off switch in our head that says, up, it's technology, ignore all these social characteristics; up, it's human, bring them back again.
RAEBURN: So even if it's one of these very crummy synthesized voices that's very obviously a computer voice, to some extent we still treat that as if that were a human being?
Dr. NASS: Yes. We've done work, for example, showing that even those voices are gender stereotypes. So, for example, when a synthetic voice reads product descriptions, the males will be more trusting of the, quote, male - even though it sounds more like a Martian, I suppose, than a person - male voice and females, more to a female voice. They'll also trust male voices describing stereotypically male products more than females describing those voices, and vice versa. So we have an enormous obsession, excuse me, with the social characteristics of voice.
RAEBURN: I'm going to take another question now on multitasking from Lewis(ph) in Greensboro. Are you there?
LEWIS (Caller): Yes. I'm here.
RAEBURN: Go ahead.
LEWIS: I'm curious about the assertion of no one being able to multitask, and if that also applies to musicians, improvisational people who are able to listen and compose at the same time?
Dr. NASS: Well, first of all, our research doesn't say no one can possibly multitask at all. We're looking for general trends. There is a fundamental difference that we don't fully understand between multi - using multiple media, multiple signals to integrate towards a single goal, as in the case of improvisational musicians, as opposed to doing things.
But what you don't see is you don't see improvisational musicians reading a book and watching TV while they pick up on the score. And I think that's a big difference. It's not related things. It's unrelated things. And again, multitask - the sort of musicians and creative people who are pulling in lots of different things to bring together a single image aren't, you know, Facebooking while they're doing it.
RAEBURN: Thanks, Lewis.
LEWIS: But they may be able to carry on a conversation while still playing a song.
Dr. NASS: That - there's less evidence of that, actually. Listening to music, yes. If you're listening to instrumental music only, there's evidence that that isn't affected. But the minute, for example, there are words or you're really trying to create music, it's very likely that they were impaired in doing that.
LEWIS: Okay. Well, I'm wondering if anything could train you towards that, like Dylan playing the guitar and harmonica.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: Well, you know, at least he's playing the same song. I don't know how he would do if they were different songs.
RAEBURN: Thanks, Lewis, for the question.
LEWIS: Thank you.
RAEBURN: I just - as we're getting near the end of the segment here, what are the recommendations that come out of this? What should we do? Should we stop multitasking? Do we have to go live in a cave to manage that?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Dr. NASS: Well, the first question is - especially people who chronically multitask should certainly do it much less, whether or simply because they're bad at it, they're particularly bad it, or in fact whether it's actually making them worse not only in multitasking, but dramatically affecting the way their brain operates.
As far as whether we have to go to a cave to do it, on the one hand, there's certainly an enormous and growing stream of information, the amount of bits coming and the number of opportunities to multitask is only growing enormously with the growth of, you know, now handheld devices, that you can do 20 things with.
But I think people can try to just not do it as much, very simply.
RAEBURN: Okay. And it's OK to listen to Bob Dylan. We can settle that issue once and for all.
Dr. NASS: Absolutely, as long as he's not telling me where to go.
RAEBURN: Thanks so much for being with us. I've been talking with Clifford Nass, professor of sociology at Stanford University, about some very fascinating work.
Thanks for being with us.
Dr. NASS: My pleasure. Thanks so much.
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